“Think Twice: Michael Jackson” is hosted by journalist and podcaster Leon Neyfakh and hip-hop radio veteran Jay Smooth. The 10-episode audio series is a co-production from Audible and podcast network Wondery (which are both part of Amazon), Prologue Projects, and Jigsaw Productions.

Cox, Leon, and Jay I’m excited to speak with you both about Think Twice: Michael Jackson, the latest podcast by Audible. Why do you think a project like this is necessary for us to really learn more about Michael Jackson’s legacy and influence outside of what we already know?
Leon Neyfakh: 
Smooth: For me, when Leon reached out to me about this project, I had to sit back and think honestly about it for some time because I didn’t want to try and attempt to explain how we should think about Michael. You know, we all have so many different feelings about Michael Jackson. And there is so much ambiguity and complexity when it comes to trying to understand him and his life in different ways. But I felt that this would be a great project for us to look at other angels stories on a microscale.

Cox: Jay I want to ask you the same question but differently. In a statement, you said you wanted this to be something that gave a fresh look back at his life and legacy. What does that technically entail?
Smooth: You know it’s been surprising to me; I think of Michael as someone who has been scrutinized, studied, worshipped, and criticized more than any other living person. So, my first thought with this project was to base it on the first-person voices of those who were around Michael and experienced him in different capacities. We really found there were a lot of angles, contours, and nuances that haven’t been explored yet when looking at his life and legacy.

We got to know more of his Jehovah’s Witness side even more deeply by finding the people who had gone door to door with him back in Gary, Indiana. We spoke to the older Chitlin Circuit musicians who watched Michael and his brothers grow up in those days. There are so many pockets of American history and culture that give you a different lens through which to look at Michael’s life.

Cox: Leon I want to extend the same question to you as well.
Neyfakh: For me, the genesis of the project came from my thinking that Michael was one of the most interesting people to ever have lived. You know, one of the greatest talents that we’ve ever seen as a culture He is someone we have watched over this long period of time grow up, change, and evolve. It’s like Jay was talking about getting first-hand experience from those around him. But we wanted to make sure we interviewed people who hadn’t been interviewed a million times. It was looking at their intersectionality with his life and extracting details so we could add new textures and insights into understanding him as a person. Everyone thinks they know all parts of him, but there are still new things to uncover.

Cox: Leon During the process of creating this podcast through interviews, was there anything you discovered that was surprising that we might not be aware of?
Neyfakh: I mean, you turn on the radio, and you can’t imagine pop music without Michael Jackson and the influence he left on it. But what people don’t know is that he was also an incredibly shrewd businessman and celebrity. He liked to really control the narrative around himself. Another thing that was interesting was the way he interacted with the media. You see celebrities and influencers doing that now, which we kind of take for granted, but with Michael, he was the first to fully control his narrative and what went out into the media.

Cox: What are the things we are going to get to explore in the ten episodes?
Smooth: There is so much story in each episode. One thing you will learn about is the making of The Wiz and how it impacted his career in a positive way. His career skyrocketed even further after being in it, but people don’t know that it was barely making it. Many at the box office and critics weren’t giving it a chance at first. They thought it wasn’t going to be a hit for the black community or something sustainable.

You will get to learn about and explore deeper his relationship with Qunicy, which is tied into The Wiz as well. I mean, there are so many different paths you will explore even within these ten episodes of this superstar with his incredible talent.

Cox: There is one episode in which you touch on his media portrayal.
Nefyakh: That episode was surprising to me because, when we think of Michael in the media, we think a lot of it just happened to him. Like the tabloids where these vultures were, but what we discovered is that Michael was a genius when it came to marketing and PR. He kind of had fun with the media and the things that would be put out. He would encourage some things, but after a while, you see that it wasn’t enjoyable for him anymore.

Smooth: I have to hop in here too and piggyback off of Leon. It was really interesting for me to learn from this Quincy interview where he said Michael was Machiavellian more than people knew. During this discovery process, we really get to learn a side of him where he was savvy and strategic about managing his image.

Cox: What’s something you both took away from this project?
Smooth: I came away from this feeling in some ways that it’s a tragic story. Because you see Michael become the greatest talent and biggest star the world has ever seen. And from such an early age, he doesn’t get a chance to become a full human being while he is on this journey to stardom.

Nefyakh: I have to agree with Jay. It’s because, when you look at the last parts of his life, he lived in isolation. There was this interview we had with his personal security guard during that period, who recounted how family members would want to come visit because they wanted something from him. He would tell him he didn’t want to see them because he didn’t want to disappoint them

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